Simon Sinek on the Power of Relationships for Longevity

Mark Hyman, MD

Full Transcript

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Dr. Mark Hyman
Coming up on this episode of The Doctor Hyman Show.

Simon Sinek
And I think that friendship is the ultimate biohack hack. I think if you can master friendship, a lot of those other things correct themselves. Friendship in the microbiome. Yeah. You know, get the microbiome right, a lot of stuff just falls into place.

Get friendship right, a lot of stuff just falls into place. Get friendship right, a lot of stuff just falls

Dr. Mark Hyman
into place. Now before we jump into today's episode, I'd like to note that while I wish I could help everyone by my personal practice, there's simply not enough time for me to do this at scale. And that's why I've been busy building several passion projects to help you better understand, well, you. If you're looking for data about your biology, check out function health for real time lab insights. And if you're in need of deepening your knowledge around your health journey, well, check out my membership community, doctor Hyman Plus.

And if you're looking for curated, trusted supplements and health products for your health journey, visit my website, doctorhyman.com, for my website store and a summary of my favorite and thoroughly tested products. Welcome to the doctor Hyman show. Today, we have an amazing conversation with one of my close friends, hero, and brilliant thinker about the things that matter in life, Simon Sinek, who's got an incredible vision of humanity that I love, who's a spark that ignites past ideas. He envisions a world where people wake up inspired, feel safe, and end the day fulfilled. He's, unshakable optimist, much like myself, a pathological optimist I call myself.

He's a trained ethnographer. He's fascinated by people and organizations that make a lasting impact, and he's discovered remarkable pattern in how they think, act, and communicate, reveals how people perform at their best. And he's known for his TED talk on why in his viral video on millennials in the workplace. I think his, TED talk has gotten over 80,000,000 views. He's gotten many best selling books, Start with Why, and his podcast, A Bit of Optimism, which is amazing you should listen to, continues to inspire so many people.

He's the founder of the Optimism Company and Optimism Press. He shares all kinds of innovative views on leadership, which attract intention from all over the world. He recently had president Biden ask him to come to the White House to be on his podcast, to be on Simon's podcast. He works with the US government, with the military, ran corporation, and he's just doing cool shit. So let's jump right into our conversation with Simon where we talk about friendship, which I think is one of the neglected topics of our time, the thing that matters most about how we live and feel.

And the other day, if we aren't connected, we can't be healthy. And so I think you're gonna love this conversation about friendship both from a humanitarian perspective and even a physiological perspective where we dive into the biology of friendship. So I think you're gonna love it. Let's just jump right in. So, Simon, it's great to have you back.

I'm so excited about our topic today, which is friendship.

Simon Sinek
Thanks, Mark. Good to be back.

Dr. Mark Hyman
It's, it's such an important topic. So let's jump right in and get to it.

Simon Sinek
So you are a world renowned doctor on the cutting edge of functional medicine. You're one of the leaders of the functional medicine movement. You have a new company where you are helping people have easier access to those kinds of, tests and community, etcetera. My big thing right now is I'm writing about friendship. Yeah.

And I'm sort of mildly obsessed with it. And so It's a

Dr. Mark Hyman
good thing to be obsessed with.

Simon Sinek
It's a good thing to be obsessed with. So I'm sure people are asking, what is what do these two things have to do with each other? Yeah. Right? Now they're a lot more closely related than I think I mean, they're a lot more closely related.

Right? And I wanna go down that path. Yeah. I wanna go down the path of the connection between health and community and health and friendship. You made a comment that you can't be a good friend if you're not healthy.

Dr. Mark Hyman
If you feel like shit, you know, you can't show up and be present and engage and be there and yeah. Just even be present to have a conversation if you're foggy and fatigued and you feel like crap and you're dealing with all kinds of issues, it's hard to really be present and that's what you need to do to be a friend. I'll give

Simon Sinek
you a perfect example of this.

Dr. Mark Hyman
Yeah.

Simon Sinek
A friend of mine is going through serious depression. Yeah. He's going through I mean it's bad bad bad

Dr. Mark Hyman
Yeah.

Simon Sinek
Suicidal ideations, the whole Yeah. The whole thing. Right? And he he he did this exercise where he, kept a diary for, twenty eight days, and he only answered three questions every night. What gave you energy?

What sapped your energy? And what did you learn? And you're not allowed to read the entries until after twenty eight days. So every for twenty eight days he he did this and he's, you know, his career is up and down Yeah. And he thinks that it's this career stress that's causing his depression.

Depression. Yeah. Right? And so he went through this exercise, and after twenty eight days, he went back and he read all the entries. Entries.

And what he discovered was career stress really accounted for, like, two days of sapping his energy. It really was a And what was the rest of it? A non factor. Lack of sleep

Dr. Mark Hyman
Yeah.

Simon Sinek
Poor diet Yep. Excessive cell phone.

Dr. Mark Hyman
Excessive cell phone usage.

Simon Sinek
Excessive social media.

Dr. Mark Hyman
It's a paradox because you need mental health to be a good friend. Right. But if you don't have friends, it's hard to have good mental health. Right. So they're they're kind of synergistic and the depression, you know, is an interesting phenomena because we have such a crisis of mental illness

Simon Sinek
Mhmm.

Dr. Mark Hyman
In this country and part of it's because of loneliness, isolation, disconnection, you know, social media, all the things that I think you're you're thinking about and and and actually writing about hopefully with your new book on friendship.

Simon Sinek
Yeah. Yeah.

Dr. Mark Hyman
But, you know, from my lens, you know, when I look at people's mental health, I look at it through the lens of biology Mhmm. Because we now understand that the brain is obviously connected to the body, which has not actually been part of medicine.

Simon Sinek
Isn't that a weird thing that that's a discovery that the brain is actually a part of the body?

Dr. Mark Hyman
I mean,

Simon Sinek
I the the the old

Dr. Mark Hyman
joke in medicine is psychiatrists pay no attention to the brain and neurologists pay no attention to the mind. Right. Right? But now psychiatrists are paying attention to the brain and they're finding that brain dysfunction, brain inflammation is actually driving much of mental illness. Everything from depression to anxiety to OCD to bipolar to schizophrenia to autism, all these things are connected to brain dysfunction.

And yes, it can be caused by an external stressor Mhmm. Like a spouse dying or trauma or things that are external, but it also can be caused by nutritional deficiencies in your microbiome and environmental toxins and things that actually are treatable and measurable. And and so I think, you know, I I was just, like, for example, here a few weeks ago in LA and I I was at an event. This guy comes up to me, doctor Hyman, I have to tell you, I had severe bipolar disease when I was a teenager. I was on a pile of medications.

I was on antipsychotic drugs. And I started, you know, reading your book on the brain and the mind called UltraMind Solution, and I followed your directions. I changed my diet. I took the supplements. I did that, and and now I'm good.

And I I got off of my medications, and I'm a high functioning human and, you know, and I

Simon Sinek
So so do you have evidence? Do you have, data to show that in our modern world with, excessive packaged goods and processed foods and unhealthy microbiomes Yeah. And and unhealthy gut and the all the junk and excess sugar. Mhmm. Can you show, from data that the the increased amount of shit that we're putting in our body in this modern day is directly contributing to the mental fitness challenges that so many people are struggling.

Dr. Mark Hyman
Absolutely. Absolutely. I mean, so much data on this, Simon. I mean, there's a very famous trial in Australia called the smiles trial. They come with all these great names for studies.

But it's doctor SMILES? No. They essentially no. They I forget the acronym. But it was essentially, they swapped out, you know, did a randomized control trial of giving people healthy whole foods and then versus processed food.

And there was a huge improvement in mental health by eating whole foods for on a on a depressed population. Mhmm. They've done studies, for example, in in, in juvenile detention centers with where there's a lot of, you know, sort of mental illness. And these kids, by swapping out the crap for healthy food, had a ninety seven percent reduction in violence Wow. And seventy five percent reduce reduction in use of restraints, a % reduction in suicide rates, which is the third leading cause of death in teenage boys.

Wow. Profound in presence, the same thing. You get prisoners healthy food compared to the crap, 56%.

Simon Sinek
And it's not like you're putting them on like, you they eat the food you give them. It's not like they're going to the fridge and choosing. No. So it's a great it's a great space for a controlled study. It is.

It is. Right? Because there's no there's no choice involved. Right.

Dr. Mark Hyman
It is. Yeah. And so it's It's

Simon Sinek
not like they have a mindset of health. No. They're just eating whatever they're given.

Dr. Mark Hyman
And then they, you know, violent crime goes down fifty six percent in prison. So if you had a multivitamin, it goes down to eighty percent. Wow. And and with function health, we're finding a huge amounts of nutritional deficiencies. So I just had a friend who's a vegan, and he was severely omega three deficient, very depressed.

And he's piling on omega threes, and his mood's completely different. And we know that omega threes play a huge role in mood. We know that folate and b vitamins play a huge role. And we know that many people are deficient in these nutrients. And we can measure those biomarkers with testing that wasn't available before for people.

Now it's accessible to anybody.

Simon Sinek
Do you know what I think is really significant about this little insight? Especially as we're relating it to friendship and and having the mental capacity to be there for someone, to having the the strength of mind to be present for someone else as they're dealing with happiness or sadness or whatever they're dealing with. They're just just being there to be a friend. Is that so often when we talk about nutrition, we talk about eating right. We talk about you.

We talk about so that you can be healthy, so that you can live longer, so that you don't suffer from chronic disease. And most of us, let's be honest, it's the same reason we don't save money. You know, if it doesn't have an immediate impact Yeah. You know, it's the it's the slow boiling frog. Yeah.

You know, you know, nobody plans to get diabetes. Right. You just kinda it kinda just shows up after years of being, like, I'll deal with this tomorrow. In other words, we're crap at doing things for ourselves even though the data is overwhelming. Yeah.

But if you just exercise, sleep, and eat right, you'll be fine and healthier. But to to think about eating well as an act of service

Dr. Mark Hyman
Yeah. To others. Yeah.

Simon Sinek
That I choose to eat well, not for me, though I may get benefits from it

Dr. Mark Hyman
Mhmm.

Simon Sinek
You know, as an unintended byproduct. Yeah. I choose to eat well so that I can be a better friend to you. I choose to eat well so that I can be a better parent to my kids, so I'm less grumpy and less agitated.

Dr. Mark Hyman
That's right.

Simon Sinek
And to think of that, I think as a as an act of service. Yeah. You know, because like for me, like, I'm I am perfectly comfortable disappointing myself.

Dr. Mark Hyman
You shouldn't be.

Simon Sinek
No. I'm genuinely completely fine with it. Like, if I wake up early, like, before, you know, whatever my calendar says I have to do at the beginning of the day, and I was like and I wake up let's say I wake up two hours before my alarm. Yeah. Right?

I'm like, oh, I could totally work out right now. I have excessive time Yeah. To work out.

Dr. Mark Hyman
Yeah. But I'd rather not. Yeah.

Simon Sinek
I'll just sit in bed and do the crossword puzzle. Right? And, and I'm I'm I'm fine with that. I I have I suffered no guilt. Yeah.

I'm just like, shit. And then I go about my day. But if I'm meeting someone early to work out before my day starts Yeah. I'll set the alarm, I'll be ready, and I will not disappoint them.

Dr. Mark Hyman
Yeah. That's right. Right? And so Illness illness starts with I, wellness starts with we.

Simon Sinek
Oh, yeah. Yeah. Isn't that true? And so and so I think the correlation and this is the thing that it drives me nuts when we think about things like, innovation or we think about things like so or or health is we make it a very I thing. Mhmm.

You have to get healthy. You have to take a multivitamin. You have to exercise. You have to sleep. Yeah.

Yeah. But we don't make it about a we. Right. And and you know the data better than I do that when, you know, there's a group of people who are overweight and one of them decides to go on a diet, the disproportionately high number of them will decide to go on a diet. Yeah.

If there's a group of smokers and one of them says I'm gonna stop smoking, the disproportionately high number Yeah.

Dr. Mark Hyman
Getting healthy is a team sport.

Simon Sinek
Getting healthy is a team sport. And and we are absolutely influenced by our friends.

Dr. Mark Hyman
Yeah. Healthy is your five closest friends.

Simon Sinek
So it raises right. So it raises the question. Because clearly we're failing as a people, as a nation Mhmm. At doing all the things you recommend. Because most of the things you recommend at the high level, what you recommend is a lot of work.

Right?

Dr. Mark Hyman
It can be or not. It's just what you set up yourself.

Simon Sinek
But but at a functional level, a lot of the stuff that you recommend is not difficult, not expensive, and pretty basic.

Dr. Mark Hyman
Yeah. It's kinda silly, but it is. Yeah.

Simon Sinek
Right? And yet, for not any more money I mean, you can buy broccoli cheaper than you can buy McDonald's. You know? For not more money, a little bit of effort, but not complicated things, you can live we can all live much healthier lives, and yet we're not. And so it raises the question, you know, are we banging against our heads against the wall?

We're repeating the same behavior expecting a different result That maybe the the the drumbeat from the health establishment of change the way you eat Yeah. Get more sleep Yeah. You know, maybe work out.

Dr. Mark Hyman
Yeah.

Simon Sinek
Like, we're all exhaust we all know that. It's not like it's not like I know.

Dr. Mark Hyman
It's not like you're you you like I think I think a lot of us know it, but there's a whole subset of our population that doesn't know what it

Simon Sinek
means to eat well.

Dr. Mark Hyman
Different

Simon Sinek
problem. Yeah. Different problem. Completely agreed. It

Dr. Mark Hyman
shocked to me, but it's it's true even in the and it's because the food industry has been so good at manipulating the public to think that certain foods are healthy that are not. And they put health claims on labels of stuff that's the worst possible food.

Simon Sinek
It's all natural, which means nothing.

Dr. Mark Hyman
My my my basic rule is if it has a health claim on the label, it's bad for you. Don't

Simon Sinek
eat it. You know? If it has a health claim on the

Dr. Mark Hyman
label because it happened. If it's trying to hide something, it's trying to hide something. Right. It's like low fat, low sugar, sugar free, you know, what else is going on in there?

Simon Sinek
Right. I mean, it's like it's like my my like, I love my

Dr. Mark Hyman
High fiber, you

Simon Sinek
know, my favorite ones are, you know, you know, new and improved formula. Like, what was in the old one? Yeah. Yeah. Like, uh-oh.

Dr. Mark Hyman
So so you were you were kinda going to the rabbit hole of, you know, we know what to do. Why don't we do it?

Simon Sinek
Why don't we do it? And I'm asking the question, maybe if we refocused our attention in a different place, Let's call it friendship. Mhmm. You know, and I look, I my the way I've been talking about it is with the rising rates of anxiety and depression and and and and mental fitness challenges and inability to cope with stress and then the worst case suicide, Even the obsession with longevity, I'll go and allow I'll throw that one as well. Friendship is the ultimate biohack.

Dr. Mark Hyman
It is.

Simon Sinek
Friendship literally fixes all of those things. It is. We know the data that people who have close relationships live longer. People who have close relationships, you know, are happier. And and you look at Dan Buettner's work

Dr. Mark Hyman
Yeah.

Simon Sinek
And the Blue Zones Yeah. And so much attention is put to them walking to the house and to the the and so much attention is put into what they're eating and how they're eating. Yeah. But not enough attention is put into the fact that they're eating with their friends every single day.

Dr. Mark Hyman
You're so right, Simon. I I actually I went and spent a lot of time in Sardinia and in Ikaria or Ikaria, however you pronounce it. And, it was just stunning to see the level of community and connection. Even if if someone, for example, like this woman, Julia, was a hundred and she was, I'm a hundred and three months. Like, you know, like, I'm five and three quarters.

I'm a hundred and

Simon Sinek
three months. I think when you're very young and you're very old

Dr. Mark Hyman
Every month. About half

Simon Sinek
the quarter count. Yeah.

Dr. Mark Hyman
And and now she didn't have kids, but she lived with her niece and nephew. And there were no nursing homes. People just took care of each other, you know. And it was really remarkable. And it was this guy, Carmine, who basically had this huge farm that he had his whole life and his family had.

And he was 86 years old and he was raising animals and had fruit trees and gardens and he, you know, he was feeding his whole community and family had meaning and purpose and he would, you know, live with his kids and his wife had died. But it was all this incredible sense of connection and community and it's it's so essential. And I I learned this lesson when I went to Haiti after the earthquake, and I was the first medical team on the ground at the main hospital, the general hospital in Port Au Prince. And it was it was a disaster. I mean, you can't imagine the scope.

It was three hundred thousand people injured and three hundred thousand people dead. Wow. It was it was an unbelievable massacre, that was a natural occurrence, but it was it was horrible. And so we got there and in the, you know, there was there were people helping, everybody was helping. There was a sense of community and service and connection, and I got to meet Paul Farmer who was a hero of mine.

He he was a man doctor who went to Haiti and decided that even though the whole world had neglected this community of people who are suffering from TB and AIDS because they were poor, they didn't have sanitation, they didn't have clean water, they didn't have watches, they couldn't take the drugs. It's it's complicated at that point to take the drug regimens for multi resistant drug resistant TB or for AIDS. Mhmm. And he realized it wasn't a medical problem. It was a social problem.

Simon Sinek
Mhmm.

Dr. Mark Hyman
And he he called it structural violence. What are the social, economic, and political conditions that drive disease? And it wasn't that we needed better drugs or surgery. We knew how to solve it.

Simon Sinek
Mhmm.

Dr. Mark Hyman
But the entire public health community had given up on them. So he started to help by building a network of community health workers, neighbors helping neighbors, friends helping friends. And and I realized and he called it accompaniment. It it was French, but he I don't I'm not good at pronouncing French, so I'm gonna skip that. Accompaniment.

Accompaniment. Yeah. Something like that. And and, and he built this whole model. It scaled around the world.

It was adapted by the Clinton Foundation, the Gates Foundation to help. He did this in Peru. He did this in prisons in Russia. He did this everywhere where where people were struggling in Rwanda, built hospitals. And it was an incredible model, and I realized that most of the diseases we have now in the West are not infectious diseases.

They're chronic illnesses, which are called non communicable

Simon Sinek
What's the difference?

Dr. Mark Hyman
Well, infectious diseases like, you know, malaria. Right? Or measles or TB. Right? These are the things that all were killing us a century ago.

Now they're pretty much not except in certain parts of the world. Mhmm. But the the disease we now have are what we call noncommunicable diseases. But that's a fallacy because they are very communicable. They're not infectious, but they're contagious.

And chronic diseases like heart disease, diabetes, cancer, dementia, autoimmune diseases, these are diseases that are driven through through many things including our diet and toxins, but also through our social networks. And I realized that our social networks

Simon Sinek
were

Dr. Mark Hyman
more important than our genes, that our that the the the social threads that connect us are more important than the genetic threads. And that you're and the data is really clear on this. Chris Dacus' work out of Harvard outlined this very clearly. He was yeah. He wrote a book called Connected about this, but Yeah.

Yeah. He's published the research that showed you, for example, if your friends are overweight, you're a 70 times more likely to be overweight than if your family's overweight, where you're 40 times more likely to be overweight, that your your social networks are driving your behavior for good or bad. Yeah. So I realized that, yes, we have a society where the default is to do the wrong thing and that we, as a society, aren't supporting each other to do the right thing.

Simon Sinek
Yeah.

Dr. Mark Hyman
And I realized that community was medicine, just like food is medicine. Yeah. And that love is medicine.

Simon Sinek
Yeah. And we that's I mean, look, that's our that's our anthropology, right? Like, we grew up in we're tribal animals that grew up, you know, historically in tribes, you know, about a 50 people and that's how we lived. Yeah. We lived in these relatively small, we help each other communities, communes.

Yeah. I mean, that's the history of of of humankind. We've only started farming ten or twelve thousand years ago. Yeah. But for most of human history, we lived in these in these small groups where we couldn't have populations larger than about a 50.

Yeah. What's very interesting about the little statistic that you threw out and the thought that I had, which is and I which is when our family is overweight, we're 40 times more likely

Dr. Mark Hyman
Forty percent.

Simon Sinek
Sorry. Forty percent more likely to be overweight. But when our friends are overweight, we're a 70 times percent, I mean, we're likely to be overweight. And that's, you know, the the immediate thing that popped into my head was when you think about children, right, children, all all they want is their parents approval. Hey mom, hey dad, watch me, watch me, watch me, watch me.

Right? And they have no inhibitions in the outside world. They don't care what the world thinks about them at all.

Dr. Mark Hyman
Just mom and dad.

Simon Sinek
I'm gonna dress like a princess, I'm gonna dress like Spiderman.

Dr. Mark Hyman
Yeah. You

Simon Sinek
know, but I want mom and dad to watch me jump off the step. Right. And I desperately want mom and dad's approval. Right? And and that's where all of the learning about, what's appropriate, what's inappropriate comes from.

Strictly from our parents nothing else.

Dr. Mark Hyman
Yeah.

Simon Sinek
Until they reach about adolescence.

Dr. Mark Hyman
And That's a pyramid.

Simon Sinek
And adolescence we convert to only needing our parents approval to only needing our friends approval. Frustrating for the parents Yeah. But very very important for social animals because what we're doing is acculturating outside of our families, beyond our families into the into the broader tribe. Yeah. And that lasts for the rest of our lives.

We don't actually go back to the family. It's all it's all friends. Yeah. Which is which is why I I have to believe and I'm just sort of thinking about this out loud now. I have to believe that's the reason so many of us go on Instagram and wish our parents happy birthday when our parents aren't on Instagram.

Right? Right. It's for the social approval that I'm a good kid Yeah. And showing all the pictures of my dad holding me when I was a baby, and like scroll through all those pictures and everybody likes that I'm a good son.

Dr. Mark Hyman
Right.

Simon Sinek
And yet, my dad's not on Instagram. Right? And so I have to wonder if that same drive, that same weird need to want social approval for being a good son is the same it comes from the same route.

Dr. Mark Hyman
I mean, a hundred if your friends are all drinking green juices and doing

Simon Sinek
Then you're gonna drink green juice.

Dr. Mark Hyman
Then you're gonna do the same thing. If all your friends

Simon Sinek
The amount of shit that I take, simply because a friend's like, you should do you know that you know what's equivalent to and I this because you because you're in the industry, I'm gonna say something that's potentially insulting to you.

Dr. Mark Hyman
Please.

Simon Sinek
That's what I like to do. I like to have I like to I like to talk to guests and then insult them. So this is potentially insulting.

Dr. Mark Hyman
Everybody. So I

Simon Sinek
So this is potentially insulting, so I need you to work this through me

Dr. Mark Hyman
with me.

Simon Sinek
Right? It feels like I can't say that it is, but it feels like that the complete explosion in the, supplement in the supplement, Industry. Industry where nothing is evaluated by the FDA Yeah. And every influencer now has a vitamin or a supplement or powder or a drink Yeah. With all kinds of nonsense claims.

Maybe they're good, maybe they're bad. It feels like we're living in the .com boom of supplements. Maybe. Yeah. That, you know, in the .com boom, you were like, I'm investing in this in this in this in this tech company

Dr. Mark Hyman
Yeah.

Simon Sinek
Because my neighbor told me I had to. Yeah. And now that's been replaced with, I'm now taking these eighty seven pills per day Yeah. Because one friend told me to take these four, another friend and just like the .com boom Yeah. It you can't live in a bubble like that.

It's gonna have repercussions and it's gonna be it's gonna be unexpected and it's gonna be pretty violent. Right. When like so riddle me this, like, is it time for the FDA to get involved? I see. Yeah.

Is it like, you know, like it's it's like, I can no longer tell the difference between a claim on a product you're selling

Dr. Mark Hyman
Yeah.

Simon Sinek
Or a claim on something that some

Dr. Mark Hyman
Right.

Simon Sinek
Like, literally, their only their only qualification is they have a following on Instagram.

Dr. Mark Hyman
Yeah. Isn't isn't that a job? It's we're living in influencers. I mean, we're living we're living Where was my course in college? Yeah.

Influencer one zero one. We're living we're living

Simon Sinek
I think we're living in in a supplement boom.

Dr. Mark Hyman
Yeah. It's it could be.

Simon Sinek
And it's gonna and it's gonna I don't know how I don't know how it suddenly, you know, kicks back. Yeah. But this can't this can't last forever.

Dr. Mark Hyman
Yeah. I I think there

Simon Sinek
And it's counted to everything you're trying to do.

Dr. Mark Hyman
Yeah. I what I want people to do is do the right thing. And I think, you know, it's it's what I've I've been my whole life trying to do is help people understand how to create health. And part of the the new company I co founded Function Health is really empowering people with their own health data to make choices that are personalized, that aren't just random because somebody said do this or do that. And so that's what I I love about the testing.

I had a, for example, a a friend the other day showed me her results from function and she was low in zinc, she was low in iron, she was low in vitamin d, she was low in omega three fats. I'm like, oh, that's why you feel like crap. You know, you need to take these things and here's what to choose. But most people don't have a way of navigating this sort of morass of products that have, again, no regulations in terms of quality or efficacy. Now, that that was sort of a deliberate decision.

It was sort of put forth by our own hash who was, from Utah where there's a big supplement industry and it was called the Shea Act. It's it's got a lot of problems because people aren't protected in the sense that they don't know if the product they're taking has the, exact ingredient it says, if the dose is what it says in the label, if there's any contaminants in it, if there's any fillers or products that kind of may be harmful to you. So it's kind of a shit show. And so as a physician, I've spent a lot of time investigating which companies are using pharmaceutical manufacturing practices, which do testing before and after their product. So they know that's a purity and potency is exactly right.

And that throw they may throw the product out of it. It isn't. So there there are good companies that are doing that, but it's it's like a I don't know. You you can't. Unless you unless you know what to ask.

Simon Sinek
I did a thing a while ago where

Dr. Mark Hyman
There's a way to learn about that.

Simon Sinek
Where they took my blood and they evaluated all of everything in my blood from I mean, you name it. All the minerals and everything I'm supposed to get and have.

Dr. Mark Hyman
Yeah.

Simon Sinek
And then they made

Dr. Mark Hyman
A personalized cocktail.

Simon Sinek
A a personalized smoothie Yeah. That replaced all my things and I'm supposed to come back every six months. Yeah. And it was really interesting and they introduced then I talked to a doctor who walks me through my results

Dr. Mark Hyman
Yeah.

Simon Sinek
And then they give me my smoothie and the only choice I get is what flavor. And and it sounded good until I was like, I don't even know if this is bullshit. Yeah. If they're just, like, I don't ask

Dr. Mark Hyman
for problem. If someone's if someone's selling you something off of something else, that that's that's that can be a problem. It's not always a problem, but if you're thinking,

Simon Sinek
I'm doing all of the things for a little bit. Like, I took AG one for a few months, and that was fine until I was like, I don't know. Maybe just vegetables. Did you did

Dr. Mark Hyman
you do the the customized shake that they gave you or not?

Simon Sinek
I just did the generic AG one that they No.

Dr. Mark Hyman
No. But the when you got your results of all the tests Yeah. They they gave you the the recommendation. Did you try it? Yeah.

Simon Sinek
Yeah. That's fair. I I I mean, I do all these things. I feel the same. Like like, I'm I've done AG one.

I've done Clostrum. I've done, I mean, I've you know? And again, all because somebody's like, you should try it. And there are people who I trust. That's why I did it.

Yeah. And, you know, they like, you take these things, like, it boosts your immune system.

Dr. Mark Hyman
And How do you measure that? Right?

Simon Sinek
Exactly. I I got a cold. So does it work or does it not work? Well, you would have been worse if you I mean, like, I don't know. Right.

Right. Right. And I, you know, you so I start I get very cynical. Sometimes I'm all in and sometimes I'm very cynical. I'm in a very cynical mode right now.

Dr. Mark Hyman
I hear that. I hear that. And I think it's fair and you're right to be cynical, and I think there's a lot of of garbage out there and a lot of people pushing stuff. And there's a lot of companies, for example, doing tests and then selling you products on the back end. I think there's a problem with that.

Simon Sinek
Okay.

Dr. Mark Hyman
So for example, function health, we don't do that at all. We just say, k. For example, you you have these things that you found that you need to fix that are affecting your health and well-being, and here's how to make a decision. For example, we have a 30 page guide on how to choose the right solution.

Simon Sinek
And you don't take We don't sell anything. And you don't take kickbacks from the products

Dr. Mark Hyman
that you've got. No kickbacks. No. We don't no. No.

No. We're completely agnostic. We don't have any Do whatever you want. You just need this. Yeah.

But but no. But not only do I want but if you're going to if you need something, here's how to choose the right product.

Simon Sinek
Got it.

Dr. Mark Hyman
Here's how to investigate the company, and here's the questions to ask, and here's what to look for, and here's how to make a good decision. So we teach you how to fish, not giving you a fish.

Simon Sinek
I I like that you're doing this, but I I'm remember, I'm in a cynical mode.

Dr. Mark Hyman
What else is new?

Simon Sinek
Which is when there's when there's a good business model, even if it's for the for the greater good, because money is fuel and that's totally fine, that means you will have competition and other people will start doing similar things, and then we're back at square one, which is all of these companies are gonna be funded by VC, and you and I know too well, unfortunately, the way VC and PE works, which is they all are wonderful. No return. They're all fantastic in the beginning, and they are so behind you in your vision at the beginning. And just wait, you know, three to five to seven years, and all of a sudden, the pressures start to show up. And the growth, we want growth because that's our business model, not your business model.

Yeah. And then all of a sudden, especially if you've given up con controlling interests, you will have built up this beautiful brand. You get fired from your own company, and they're I mean, the number of companies that have like, that were the brand Aveda, Burt's Bees, Kashi, you know, Amy's. These were

Dr. Mark Hyman
Well, they got bought by Kraft.

Simon Sinek
You know, they were all great brands

Dr. Mark Hyman
Yeah.

Simon Sinek
That built their brands based on, like, Aveda or Burt's Bees natural ingredients, Kashi. And we believed it because the founders were true. And then they sold Yeah. To Kraft and Yeah. L'Oreal and whoever buys these companies.

They strip the beautiful things out, put the shit in because they can increase margin. Yeah. But we're none the wiser. We don't know which CEOs got fired from beautiful companies. We don't know that these companies are owned by large conglomerates that are driven by shareholder value.

Dr. Mark Hyman
That's true.

Simon Sinek
And then we end up suffering for these products that we were told were good, and they were good until they weren't good. Yeah.

Dr. Mark Hyman
That's true. And

Simon Sinek
we're back at square one.

Dr. Mark Hyman
Yes. So I

Simon Sinek
think we should just have friends and

Dr. Mark Hyman
Well, let's get back to the conversation about friendship because I think

Simon Sinek
I think that that, you know, the the the fundamental thing is We should we should garden and farm with our friends. That's right. And then eat our own food.

Dr. Mark Hyman
Well, we can't live you know, I mean, when you look when you look at the

Simon Sinek
the problem. It's subsistence farming. That's that's what I I think it's right.

Dr. Mark Hyman
I mean, I think, you know, community gardens are amazing. I think they're great service for people. And I I think that what we're finding is that loneliness is as big a killer as anything else. Some have said it's equivalent to smoking two packs of cigarettes a day. And how many, especially men, don't have someone who's a good friend?

Simon Sinek
Yeah.

Dr. Mark Hyman
How many people don't have somebody to call Yeah. When shit goes down?

Simon Sinek
Right? I've talked about this before where, you know, as I've been on this journey of understanding friendship and learning friendship, I was having a conversation with a friend of mine who's active duty military. And what people don't understand about active duty military and veterans, what people don't understand about military is that it's it's a highly emotional enterprise. It's a very, very human enterprise because life and death is the is the thing. Yeah.

And and higher calling and service are big, very human themes. And so I've hugged more people in uniform than I've ever hugged in suits. I've cried with more people in uniform than I've ever cried within suits. I've sat around dinner tables with with generals who were sort of telling stories at the dinner table, and we're all crying. Wow.

I've never done that with CEOs ever. And, and I remember he's a very close friend of mine, and we were just catching up. And at the end of our hour long conversation, he we're getting off the phone, and he says, I love you. Not love you, not love you. I love you.

Yeah. And to your point, you know, I think men really struggle with saying those words to the people who they genuinely love.

Dr. Mark Hyman
Yeah.

Simon Sinek
And so I didn't experiment with my friends. I I remember that feeling of what it gave to me when he said those words to me. It took me aback, and it felt amazing.

Dr. Mark Hyman
Yeah. It felt amazing.

Simon Sinek
And and so I started experimenting. I have a couple of friends who, if you met them, you wouldn't describe them as warm. They're wonderful people. Yeah. They're generous and they're kind.

Dr. Mark Hyman
They're not fuzzy.

Simon Sinek
But they're not they're not warm. Yeah. You know, if I told you this is one of my best friends, you'd be like, he's a little distant, is what your reaction would be.

Dr. Mark Hyman
He has Asperger's.

Simon Sinek
They don't have Asperger's. They're just they're just a little they're just a little cold.

Dr. Mark Hyman
They're just

Simon Sinek
a little guarded. They're guarded. Let's call them guarded. Yeah. And one of them, I I was leaving his house, and as I was getting ready to leave, I said, I love you.

And I watched him Freak out. I watched him no. He didn't freak out. I just I could see the reaction. And since then, he has been much more emotionally open with me, and I don't even think he realizes it.

Yeah. I don't think he realizes he wasn't before and that he's more now.

Dr. Mark Hyman
Interesting.

Simon Sinek
And the other one I tried it with, and I sort of said I love you, and I gave him a kiss on the cheek as I was saying goodbye. And he did not know how to react. And, I did it again the next time I saw him, and he hugged me the second time like I was his son Yeah. Which he'd never done before. He's he's always nice to me.

He's he's, you know, he's one of my best friends. He's never hugged me like that before. Yeah. And I realized that to take the risk to say I love you, if you mean it, it's gotta mean something. It's hard it's easy to say love you.

Yeah. It's easy to say love you. It's very hard to say I love you. Right? Those three words together are brutally hard to say, especially for men.

And I to your point, you know, I I wonder and and this goes to this idea of service again, which is whose responsibility is it to say it. Right? And I go back to the work that I did some years ago when I was writing Leaders Eat Last, with Alcoholics Anonymous. You know, if you wanna overcome alcoholism as a 12 step program, most of us are familiar with the first step, You know, admit you have a problem. Yeah.

Okay. Let's say I'm depressed or I'm lonely. Let's let's admit that's the problem. Right? But it's the twelfth step that people don't talk about.

Dr. Mark Hyman
Right.

Simon Sinek
And Alcoholics Anonymous knows exactly. Alcoholics Anonymous knows that you can master 11 steps and not the twelfth, and you will succumb to the disease. Yeah. And it's the exactly to help another alcoholic. It's service.

Dr. Mark Hyman
Yeah.

Simon Sinek
And so I think to to to find the courage to say I love you, I think the people who are the most lonely Mhmm. Are the ones who have to go first. Mhmm. Because the way to solve your problem is to help your friend who's suffering from the same problem. If you're an alcoholic, you help another alcoholic.

If you're lonely, help a friend who's lonely. And and I think that the the the therapeutic benefits of helping someone who's struggling with the same thing that you're struggling with rather than worrying about yourself goes right back to the gym. You know?

Dr. Mark Hyman
There's a huge biology to it, dude. I don't know if you know, but there's a whole field of socio genomics, which is how our social interactions affect our gene expression. Say more. So if you're in a conflictual, relationship with someone, your inflammatory genes are turned on. Literally, not just your emotions are inflamed, but your biology turns on the inflammation system.

Simon Sinek
Like fight or flight kind of stuff?

Dr. Mark Hyman
Not fight or flight. Just if you're like in a shitty relationship or if you're fighting with someone or you have a conflict, you turn on inflammatory genes that then increase expression of cytokines that cause inflammation and that cause disease and all chronic disease from depression to heart disease to diabetes to obesity, Alzheimer's are all inflammatory diseases. Conversely, if you have a connected loving relationship with somebody, that turns on anti inflammatory genes.

Simon Sinek
And and this And inflammation is the core of like everything. Yeah. And and we and they did study with entrainment, you

Dr. Mark Hyman
know, where you have where you if you sit with someone and you have a an authentic connection that you can put EEG and EKGs on, basically brain waves and heart waves.

Simon Sinek
Mhmm.

Dr. Mark Hyman
You can see the heartbeat of someone you're having a deep connected relationship with in your brain waves. Wow. It's wild. So it's not just a feel good thing on an emotional level, it's a physiological response that happens of being in connection. If you take animals and put them in, you know, cages and separate animals and feed them exactly the same thing and have everything else the same

Simon Sinek
Yeah.

Dr. Mark Hyman
The one that's isolated versus the ones that are connected will shrivel in dying and get sick. Yeah. Right? And so humans are the same way and we've we've gotten we've gotten in a situation where friendship and connection is sort of

Simon Sinek
like Okay. So why aren't doctors why aren't doctors prescribing to spend more time with friends? I do. Like like doctor, I'm suffering from x y and z. Yeah.

Okay. I'd like you to try and get an extra hour of sleep. Go to bed a little earlier. I'd like you to stop eating before, you know, eat no don't eat past 08:00 at night and I want you to spend at least three hours a week with with a friend. How come that's not enough It

Dr. Mark Hyman
should be.

Simon Sinek
On a prescription. It should be.

Dr. Mark Hyman
It should be. I mean, I I I prescribe it. In fact, I I actually, based on this work that I did in Haiti, I I met a pastor after Rick Warren who wrote The Purpose Driven Life

Simon Sinek
Yeah, sure.

Dr. Mark Hyman
And had a church with 30,000 members and I met him and came to my office and we started talking and I said, hey, you know, Rick, tell me about your church because I'm not really I'm a Jewish doctor from Newark. I don't know much about evangelical Christian churches. Like, yeah, we got 30,000 people. Like, wow. It's a lot of megachurch.

She's like, yeah, we got 5,000 groups that meet every week, small groups in the church to help each other live better lives. I'm like, oh, this isn't a megachurch. This is thousands of mini churches. Yeah. And I and I had that the light bulb moment.

I'm like, well, I just come back from Haiti. I said, why don't we put a healthy living program into the groups and see what happens? Yeah. He said, great idea. Because I was baptizing my church last week, and after about the eight hundredth person, I'm like, man, we're a fat church, and I'm fat, and we gotta do something about it.

Simon Sinek
Yeah.

Dr. Mark Hyman
And so we put a program together through the small groups where people were just helping each other. There was no doctor, nutritionist, health coach, nobody. There was just a curriculum. Yeah. We had a big rally, you know, sort of a big event where we talked about and Rick talked about the biblical rationale for why God wants us to be healthy.

I gave a bunch of speeches and talked about how, you know, God lives in you, why are you feeding him crap and things like that.

Simon Sinek
I mean You

Dr. Mark Hyman
know, if Jesus came to dinner, what would you feed him? You know, Big Mac Fries and a Coke, And, they got it.

Simon Sinek
Ain't that the truth? Ain't that the Yeah. If Jesus came to dinner, what would you feed him?

Dr. Mark Hyman
Exactly. So they got it. I said, you know, if you feel like crap, how are you gonna serve God? How are you gonna serve each other? You've gotta take care of your body.

And and so they got it, and they did this together in community. It was jogging for Jesus and, they all these incredible. It was incredible. And they lost together a quarter million pounds in the first year, and they did it together. And then I took that same model and I applied it at Cleveland Clinic where we created small groups where people helped each other.

And we had we did research on us and published it. There were three times better health outcomes on validated metrics of health outcomes compared to one on one visits for the same condition with the same doctors. Wow. So the doctors in our clinic could see them in one on one or just support them in a group. Right.

The group was three times as good as seeing the doctor one on one in terms of health.

Simon Sinek
So why but why aren't these things then being implemented across the medical field?

Dr. Mark Hyman
I'm trying.

Simon Sinek
Why aren't why aren't we why aren't we going to the doctor with our friends? Yeah. To deal with similar issues? Why aren't we, like, everything's so

Dr. Mark Hyman
Yeah.

Simon Sinek
Siloed. Literally, it's in in

Dr. Mark Hyman
It it is essential. I mean, I think, you know, the models of support, whether it's coaching, whether it's one on one coaching or support, whether it's group models, they have to be the thing that's gonna change because our our we we get healthy together or we get sick together. So the quote from Benjamin Franklin is we must all hang together or surely we'll all hang separately. I mean And I think that's kind of where we're at in society. That's kinda where we are.

Simon Sinek
Yeah. I I'm very glad that we are talking about this because I have a lot of respect for your work. And the fact that you're validating all this friendship stuff that I'm doing from a from a from a from a a physician standpoint Yeah. Not a kumbaya is it nice?

Dr. Mark Hyman
There's so much science on this. We we wrote a book about this, work called the Daniel Plan after Daniel from the Bible who resisted the king's temptation of rich food and was better for it. And and we talked about the five f's, you know, food, fitness, focus, which is your mental fitness, faith, and friends. Why aren't friends number one? Well, they were maybe in there somewhere.

I don't know.

Simon Sinek
I don't know the order.

Dr. Mark Hyman
But I was like, food, probably friends. But the whole point is friends are such a a key part of our well-being, whether it's understanding the blue zones or how whether it's AA or Weight Watchers. It's how we change. I mean,

Simon Sinek
AA, all of these things, Weight Watchers, they're all community based things. Percent. And one of the problems we have in our society is community things, you know, bowling leagues don't exist anymore. Mhmm. You know, church church attendance is down.

Yeah. You know? So and church attendance and faith are not the same thing. You know, you can have faith and not go to church, and you can go to church and not have faith.

Dr. Mark Hyman
That's right.

Simon Sinek
You know? The church would rather that they they're overlapping. But but, but but the idea of doing things in commune, in community, this is why I love things like Comic Con or Burning Man or whatever your, you know

Dr. Mark Hyman
Then you've never been to Burning Man?

Simon Sinek
I have been to Burning Man.

Dr. Mark Hyman
You have? Yeah. Oh.

Simon Sinek
Or or or or, Sturgis. Is that what it's called? Yeah. It's called the the motorcycle thing.

Dr. Mark Hyman
Yeah. Those angels.

Simon Sinek
Like, all of these things. Like, I I like and I don't care, like, politics aside, like, I don't care what it is. Going to church, you know, doing things in community with people who have common interest. Yeah. And, you know, one of the questions I'm getting since I've started talking about friendship, It's amazing how many people are coming up to me who are of all ages, of all income levels, who are saying to me, I'm I I don't know how to make friends.

Yeah. I struggle to make friends.

Dr. Mark Hyman
Because because we're afraid to be authentic. I mean, that's the hard part. Right? It's it's not Have

Simon Sinek
you ever struggled to make friends?

Dr. Mark Hyman
When I was a kid, I didn't have any. I was a weird kid. I just was in my head, read a lot of books, was a little weird, and, you know, kind of a nerd. Uh-huh. And I just didn't And you

Simon Sinek
had a lot of health issues when you were younger?

Dr. Mark Hyman
Not not not really. It came later. When I was in my thirties. Okay.

Simon Sinek
Okay.

Dr. Mark Hyman
And I just I was living in Toronto in the seventies. It was a spiritual wasteland, and I was just did not kinda relate to anybody, and it wasn't till I left and went to college and went to Cornell that I found other people who were like, oh, wow, you, you know, you actually think like me, and you read the same books, you do the same things. And in fact, I actually my first real friend I met on the top of a mountain in the Canadian Rockies. We were backpacking, and it was a week out in in the middle of nowhere by myself, and he was a week out. And we crossed over on Badger Pass, in Alberta in Banff National Park, and, we just had this kind of moment of connection, and we both found out we're gonna be at Cornell in in fall.

He was in Ithaca College. I was at Cornell. We climbed this mountain the first night called Brachypod Mountain. It was like 11,000 feet. It was like this kind of kind of kind of prototypical pointy top mountain.

We sat on the ridge and watched the sunset at 11:00 at night and then ran down the screen. We just had this extraordinary experience and we got back and we got together and you know we didn't know if we were gonna be friends or not, but we we became like brothers and

Simon Sinek
Still friends today?

Dr. Mark Hyman
He's my best friend. Yeah. We forty No kidding. Forty six years later. Wow.

Yeah. Forty six years later, we do mountain bike trips all over. We we're we're very close and, you know, we help each other. And when one's down, the other picks one up. When I'm down, he picks me up.

When he's down, I pick him up. And we've had this really sustained deep authentic intimate relationship Yeah. For forty five years.

Simon Sinek
That's amazing.

Dr. Mark Hyman
And we love each other, we hug each other, we cry together, and we laugh together. And it you know it was a place where where I could say and be and do anything, and it was it was a remarkable experience for me to actually feel seen and loved. It was like the first person who loved me who didn't actually have to love me like my parents.

Simon Sinek
Right. They didn't have to love you. They chose Olivia.

Dr. Mark Hyman
That was like and that friendship for me has been like an anchor in my life. Throughout all the troubles and tribulations and successes and diseases and, you know, his wife committed suicide. I went through three divorces. I got very sick. He Such an overachiever.

Yeah. I know. Right? The the the I'm an expert at relationships then.

Simon Sinek
I mean, what did WC Fields say? Quitting smoking is the easiest thing I've ever done. I've done it hundreds of times.

Dr. Mark Hyman
That's right.

Simon Sinek
Marriage is the easiest thing I've ever done. I've done it four times.

Dr. Mark Hyman
This one's I got it right, though.

Simon Sinek
The Here here here's something I discovered about close friendships. Right? Which is we always talk about close friends as the person you would call in when you're in need, when you need help, the person you can cry with, the person you know, we we the person when you're in pain. Yeah. And I actually think that's true.

That's a level of close friendship that you can call that person when you when in a time of struggle or need. But I think there's even a closer level of friendship, which is when you can call somebody when something amazing happened.

Dr. Mark Hyman
And they're not jealous.

Simon Sinek
And there's no jealousy. And you can call them and what you're doing is bragging, but not really. You just need to tell someone about this amazing thing you accomplished Yeah. Or that was given to you or that you won or that, you know, whatever it is. And if you were told anybody else, they'd

Dr. Mark Hyman
be like, they

Simon Sinek
think you were bragging. Yeah. Yeah. But to that friend, they're they have unbridled joy with you and for you. And what I've learned is the number of people I would call with good news is actually smaller than the number of people I would call with bad news.

Dr. Mark Hyman
That's interesting. But you can call me with good news. Oh, thank you. I'll celebrate you.

Simon Sinek
But you know what I mean? Yeah. It's like to you know, and and, like, a friend of mine called me recently about something amazing that happened in his life. And, and he was I was the first person he called, and we and I I had no jealousy, and I was I was like I was feeling like a parent. Yeah.

You know, I was so proud of him for what he did. Mhmm. And and you realize that that was actually more intimate

Dr. Mark Hyman
Yeah.

Simon Sinek
Than being there in pain. Yeah. And so I started making lists of who are the people I would call for the insanely good things. Yeah. And it's a smaller number.

Dr. Mark Hyman
Well, it is. It's important to take an inventory of your life and your friends. And and if you don't have good friends, it's really important to cultivate them, to invest in them, to find them. And there's ways to do that. I mean, there's ways to put yourself in environments and situations, and part of it's like who you are.

Right? For me, you know, I wear my heart on my sleeve, and I'm just who I am. Like, when we met, Oh, I remember. It was a weekend and I had just gone through this very intense emotional process and I, you know, worked a lot of this trauma that I was had experienced as a kid and I was just like kind of like in this altered state and then I met you and I don't remember.

Simon Sinek
Oh, I remember. Oh, I remember. And I I think that's why

Dr. Mark Hyman
we became Yeah. You put it

Simon Sinek
you put it on your sleeve.

Dr. Mark Hyman
Because I just I just shared authentically and and we just then had this connection. And it was that's kind of what I'm talking about is in order to actually create friendship, you you have to be open. You have to open your heart.

Simon Sinek
I think I think people sometimes treat

Dr. Mark Hyman
And not be afraid of being judged.

Simon Sinek
I think people sometimes treat friendships like bad food. Right? So

Dr. Mark Hyman
I don't get that.

Simon Sinek
So so but here but here's what I mean. Like like, you know, I I just had this conversation with a friend of mine just just very recently. She's in a relationship, and she's if she's afraid of being alone. Mhmm. She knows the relationship isn't perfect.

She knows that if she were in a different place in her life, she wouldn't be with this person. But that partner fills a space for her for where she's at. Mhmm. She's more afraid of the loneliness Yeah. Than being in an imperfect relationship.

Dr. Mark Hyman
Yeah. I do not.

Simon Sinek
And and I don't know how healthy that is.

Dr. Mark Hyman
The devil you know is

Simon Sinek
And better than devil you know. Can rationalize it. Like, they go on adventures together, and they laugh a lot together, which is all true. But then, now as I'm talking to you, it kinda sounds like cake, which is, I know I shouldn't eat this, but it's so tasty Mhmm. And so chocolatey Yeah.

And just so good.

Dr. Mark Hyman
Yeah.

Simon Sinek
And I'll worry about it later.

Dr. Mark Hyman
Yeah. Yeah.

Simon Sinek
You know, what's what's another little piece? I'm just having a little piece of cake. And it the good I can I can I can I enjoy the goodness so much that I can ignore the badness?

Dr. Mark Hyman
Yeah. And We tolerate a lot.

Simon Sinek
Tolerate a lot. And, you know, this is one of the downsides of human beings, which is we're incredibly adaptable people. We're incredibly adaptable systems.

Dr. Mark Hyman
I did that for so many years in relationships. I was like, oh, it's good enough. It's it's all this bad stuff, I just rationalize away. And

Simon Sinek
So how how do we okay. You're a doctor. You know, one of the things I'm taught one of the things that I'm I'm exploring when this friendship book is how to make friends. Yeah. How to foster friendship.

Mhmm. That's the thing I think most of us fall down on. How to navigate tension in friendships, and how to end friendships. Mhmm. How to recognize that I really like this chocolate cake, but I think I need to not be in friendship or in relationship with this chocolate cake.

And maybe we'll just hang out now and then. Yeah. You know? Because I do have fun with you, and I do like you, but this is not healthy.

Dr. Mark Hyman
At a certain dose.

Simon Sinek
At a certain there's a certain dosage. And I've adopted wholeheartedly, by the way, just as a quick aside, you know, something you say regularly, which is treat sugar like a recreational drug. That's right. You know? That's right.

Because I enjoy sugar Alright. But I know to do it just occasionally.

Dr. Mark Hyman
Right. Right.

Simon Sinek
You know, it's okay. Right. I don't I don't I I read once, and you can affirm whether this is correct or not, that when people stress about eating dessert, the cortisol released from the stress about eating the cake is actually worse for you than the chocolate cake. It might be. Yeah.

It might be. So if you're gonna have a little piece of chocolate cake,

Dr. Mark Hyman
just enjoy it. Well, I did. You're right, Simon. The greatest pharmacy is the one between your ears.

Simon Sinek
Yeah.

Dr. Mark Hyman
And it can actually kill you

Simon Sinek
or it

Dr. Mark Hyman
can heal you, literally. Yeah. I mean, that's how, you know, voodoo works. It's not like they just kind of, like, put a hex on you and you die. I mean, people that actually happens.

Simon Sinek
Yeah.

Dr. Mark Hyman
So I I think how we think about things matters. So if you you wanna eat a cookie, eat that cookie and love the cookie.

Simon Sinek
And just enjoy it.

Dr. Mark Hyman
And then chew every bite.

Simon Sinek
And treat it like a recreational drug. Just have one.

Dr. Mark Hyman
Two

Simon Sinek
at the most. You know one of one of my tricks? If there's like a bowl of M and M's. Yeah. If you take a handful of M and M's and throw them in your mouth, that counts as one.

That's one mouthful. No. And then you take another handful and

Dr. Mark Hyman
put it in

Simon Sinek
your mouth, that's two. But if I have one M and M, that's also one. One. And if I have another, that's because you count mouthfuls, not M and M's.

Dr. Mark Hyman
Yeah.

Simon Sinek
And so if you just go from handful to one or two, you would drastically reduce the sugar intake. Anyway, but we digress. How how have you ever I I wanna understand the health issues of staying in unhealthy friendships or unhealthy relationships. Where we know where we know, and when we're in in the the dark parts of the night, we'll admit to our admit to ourselves out loud, this is not a good relationship, and I shouldn't be in this, but I fear the alone more than than the thing that I'm in. Yeah.

Talk talk about the physiological impact of being in an in an unhealthy relationship.

Dr. Mark Hyman
We sort of touched on it before, but when you when you're in a conflictual relationship, your physiology changes to a state of disease. Be cortisol goes up, your, inflammatory cytokines go up, your microbiome can change. I mean, a whole series of things happen in your body that make you more sick, And and we see we see this happening. You know, here we see people who are in in bad relationships just do poorly and get sick more often. And so I think I think the data is there.

It's just really the question is how do we how do we navigate a world where friendship is not of value? It just doesn't it just seemed like the last thing on the totem pole. Mhmm. You know, and after work, after success, after social media, after whatever, or else we're doing, exercise, food, it's it's not something we invest in. And it it it's it's a crisis.

It's a it's a severe crisis. I mean, I I know you probably saw those articles in the New York Times about men and friendships, and it was just it was just so heartbreaking. And for me, it's it's it's been a value I've had my whole life, and I've intentionally invested in friendships. And when COVID happened, you know, we're all isolated, we're all alone. And September 2020, my wife and I split up.

I had just had back surgery. I was alone. It was COVID. And what did I do? I sent an email to my closest men friends, six other men, who I've, you know, done men's work with, done men's retreats with, done medicine journeys with, And I said, hey, guys.

Like, can we start a little Zoom once a week for an hour maybe? And they're like, how about we do two hours every week? You know? And we've been going for it's plus four years now. Mhmm.

And it's it's remarkable to have this container. And what's been interesting to watch is that even though these these were all my close friends for forty years, thirty years, that the the depth of our friendship has gotten more profound the more vulnerable we've gotten. The more we open our hearts, the more we share our fears, the more we share our successes, the more we share whatever is going on in our life doesn't matter. There's always something with one of us, and it's it's it's to me, it's like an anchor. And and most of us don't have that.

And in, Okinawa, one of the blue zones, there's something called a moai, which is when you are born, you're stuck together with, like, three or four other kids, babies, and that's your basically group for your life. And you Isn't that amazing? Yeah. And you you're there throughout everything.

Simon Sinek
You don't even pick the friends. I mean, this happens with, like, the Marine Corps or any boot camp for that matter. You know, these become lifelong friendships because you go through hardship together. Or in the Israeli army, one of the reasons they're, historically been very successful is when you go through boot camp, that's your unit for the rest of your Yeah. That's for the rest of your military career.

Yeah. Is that is that you don't get split up. Yeah. And they they but so what I think is really interesting is these these friend groups aren't chosen. They're kind of like arranged marriages like you're just thrown together by zip code or by you know and you're in the case of babies like oh you're born on the same day you're friends.

Dr. Mark Hyman
Yeah. Exactly.

Simon Sinek
Right? And I think what's really interesting about that which is you know, sometimes just, like, I think sometimes we over analyze, you know, who should be a friend. Am I is that right?

Dr. Mark Hyman
Well, I mean, I I'm trying to think

Simon Sinek
I mean, maybe I disagree with myself as I'm saying the word

Dr. Mark Hyman
It depends on the situation. When you're if you go through shit with somebody, even if you don't you don't have all the same background, you can get close. Right? Yeah. And I I mean, I was in Haiti.

I was thrown together. Yeah.

Simon Sinek
Yeah. Because we we know that shared hardship produces cortisol. I mean, shared hardship produces, oxytocin. Yeah. So when you go through shared hardship with someone, it it creates a bond of

Dr. Mark Hyman
Yeah.

Simon Sinek
It it creates bonds. So But but but now that I think about it, I'm gonna go back on what I said, which is I also know friendships and have had friendships where time is the only bond, where we really don't

Dr. Mark Hyman
That's not enough though sometimes.

Simon Sinek
We we like we used to grow together but now, you know, it's sort of grown apart. And, you know, we have fun, I guess, you know.

Dr. Mark Hyman
Some of the being friends is is actually calling people out. In other words, when you see, like, if you're growing But

Simon Sinek
I think we stay in friendships unnecessarily simply because, oh, but we've been friends for thirty years. Like, so what? So what? If it's no longer it's like, you wouldn't stay in a marriage that is it is dysfunctional just because you've been married.

Dr. Mark Hyman
That's right.

Simon Sinek
And yet we seem to have a different standard for like, nobody says when you say, you know, I've been married to my wife for twenty five years, but, you know, we've struggled for a lot of years. And quite frankly, I think we've just decided mutually, you know, it's amicable, but we've decided to call it quits. Nobody says, I think you should stay in the marriage, you've been married for twenty five years. Like I think you I think you should try and go another twenty five. Nobody says that.

Dr. Mark Hyman
But part of the friendship But we

Simon Sinek
say that in friendship. Like how can you end the friendship? You've been friends for twenty five years.

Dr. Mark Hyman
Well you can. But

Simon Sinek
I'm saying people it's a different standard. Time becomes the only bond.

Dr. Mark Hyman
It's true. But sometimes when you shift apart or some people change, like if you're changing and you're growing or I was changing and growing and your friend isn't Yeah. And you see this sort of It's hard. Split happening, you have one of two choices. You can either go, okay.

Well, we're just moving apart and it was a nice while it lasted. Yeah. Or you can actually kind of go in for kind of a surgical spiritual surgery. And and and sometimes it's painful, but I've done this with friends where I've seen them be in bad relationships or be in a job they didn't like or doing things that were contracting their life and becoming smaller when they were expansive, open beings when I knew them earlier. And I had a choice where I was gonna just kind of let this happen, or was I gonna go in for a surgery?

And I was like, was I gonna do a spiritual surgery on this person? And and some of those people are always doing it, some of them are not. Yeah. But, you know, I had to drug him. Literally, I had to give him MDMA.

I had to, like, literally spend hours acid and and basically get him to really see how his life That's

Simon Sinek
a little extreme.

Dr. Mark Hyman
Contracted. And and it it he needed that, you know, like and and he needed to kinda break the cycle of his pattern of thinking. And now, you know, he's lost 40 pounds. He's out of the relationship. He's free.

He's got out of his job. He's, you know, kind of had a good time of his life. He's exploring his own development. He's growing. He's let go of his fears around money and this and that.

I mean, it's it's amazing to see a transformation, but it wouldn't have happened if I hadn't leaned in Yeah. Yeah.

Simon Sinek
As a friend. I I I have a friend who sat down with me to give me some life advice. Yeah. And the conversation started like this. I need to tell you something and you need to hear this, and I need you to know that you're not gonna like what I have to tell you.

Dr. Mark Hyman
But I love you. He

Simon Sinek
didn't say that. He said, you're not gonna like what I have to tell you, and I recognize that you may be so angry with me for telling you this that you might end the friendship with me. And I want you to know that I'm willing to risk our friendship to tell you this because you need to hear it.

Dr. Mark Hyman
Wow. And how did that land for you?

Simon Sinek
I mean, he picked the right person because I'm like, yeah. I mean, you're not gonna lose the friendship, but bang, you know, game on. Right? And he gave me something that was very hard to hear that I that needed to be said, and I love him even more Yeah. For risking the whole friendship out of love.

Yeah. Like he was willing to throw away the friendship because he cared about me so much to tell me this. And that is that's a high bar.

Dr. Mark Hyman
That is I mean, I think that speaks to, I think, what's what, you know, I think it defines friendship in my mind. What defines friendship is the ability to be authentically who you are and to be authentic and transparent with your friend.

Simon Sinek
Mhmm.

Dr. Mark Hyman
Just like your friend was.

Simon Sinek
Yeah.

Dr. Mark Hyman
Right? I mean,

Simon Sinek
it gave me the whole preamble.

Dr. Mark Hyman
Yeah. And that's that's a that's a it's a very scary thing for people to actually let down their guard.

Simon Sinek
Yeah.

Dr. Mark Hyman
Right? To be open and to risk. And and it's fearful. But but that's what creates real friendships.

Simon Sinek
Yeah. I think so. I think

Dr. Mark Hyman
so. Creates real friendships.

Simon Sinek
Another friend of mine is struggling. I'm I'm, like, I'm so attuned to friends these days. Another friend of mine is struggling with one of her friends. And she asked herself if I was in a marriage and my or just a romantic relationship, a long term romantic relationship and the the relationship was struggling, we wouldn't just break up. We would we would get help.

We would seek therapy. Couples couples counseling. Yeah. And so she went to her friend and said, this attention has been going over too long. We're gonna go to therapy together.

That's right. Therapy. Yeah. And why not? Again, why why do we instinctively understand that if a marriage or a relationship is struggling, that we expect people to at least try to at least try the couple's therapy before you call the whole things quit before you call the whole thing quits.

And yet, we don't do that with friendships. When we have tension with friendships, we're quicker to end the friendship or sit in weird tension or avoid the person than to go to the therapy with the person to try and work through the struggles. We may still end up breaking up.

Dr. Mark Hyman
Yeah. Yeah.

Simon Sinek
But let's at least put in a put in the effort Yeah. To rescue this friendship that we claim we care about. Yeah. I love the idea of of of friendship counseling.

Dr. Mark Hyman
Yeah. I mean and and it speaks to that same point about, like, not just co living in a sense of just doing things together.

Simon Sinek
Existing together. Yeah. And having Going to movies together and having fun together but rather Yeah.

Dr. Mark Hyman
Just superficial dinner.

Simon Sinek
And and by the way, I I will stress that I don't believe all French friendships need to be at this level. Like, it is perfectly fine to have friends.

Dr. Mark Hyman
At least

Simon Sinek
a couple. Two or three.

Dr. Mark Hyman
You need

Simon Sinek
to you need at least a handful. Some have more, some have fewer. You need but having friends where they're not deep, you know, bonds of vulnerability. You just have fun together. Totally fine.

Dr. Mark Hyman
Yeah.

Simon Sinek
You know? You have adventure partners or activity partners. Totally fine. I don't mean and and I think that's one of the problems we have in our country, if not the world. I don't know about other languages.

I only know about English. But, like, you know, one of the problems I think is language. So for example, if you have stage four liver cancer or you have a mild melanoma

Dr. Mark Hyman
Mhmm.

Simon Sinek
The problem is both of those things are called cancer. Mhmm. But they're clearly not the same thing. No. But the we use the same word.

Dr. Mark Hyman
Right. I have a skin cancer.

Simon Sinek
Right. Exactly.

Dr. Mark Hyman
I was

Simon Sinek
like, you're fine. You know? Right. What did Larry David say? It's the good cancer.

And I think we do I think we have very few taxonomies. We have very few words for friends. Mhmm. You know? And so I've started using

Dr. Mark Hyman
Best friend friend.

Simon Sinek
Yeah. That's pretty much it. And even then best friend is sometimes a little overused. Yeah. You know?

So I've started really trying to add more language.

Dr. Mark Hyman
Uh-huh.

Simon Sinek
When somebody says, hey, aren't you friends with them? I go, I'm friendly with them. Mhmm. Or somebody says, aren't you close with them? I'm like, no.

They're an acquaintance or they're a work friend. Yeah. You know? And so I've actually started to use the language for my own clarity and for other people's clarity then that everybody that I know is not my friend.

Dr. Mark Hyman
Right.

Simon Sinek
I know them. Yeah. Sometimes I like them. Yeah. Some or I'll say it's a new friendship.

Dr. Mark Hyman
Yeah. Yeah.

Simon Sinek
Or we're friendly.

Dr. Mark Hyman
Yeah.

Simon Sinek
And I become really good about sort of categorizing people because some I want to invest in, and some I'm okay with them being at that level. But I want both myself and everyone around me to make no mistake. Not everybody I know is my friend that I'm gonna, like You can't have an infinite number. I can't have an infinite number.

Dr. Mark Hyman
It takes it takes time.

Simon Sinek
It takes time. And investment is a real thing.

Dr. Mark Hyman
Yeah. And that's it. That's the thing I think we neglect right is is making a deliberate effort

Simon Sinek
Yeah.

Dr. Mark Hyman
To spend time with friends. Yeah. To do special things. To kind of take the time to slow down and stop

Simon Sinek
I think so.

Dr. Mark Hyman
And actually have conversations that matter. And that that's it's the kind of the last thing we tend to think about. Yeah. But, you know, as we talked about earlier on, this is a central part of of happiness, of joy, of longevity, of health.

Simon Sinek
By the way, go back to that longevity thing. You're in that space, and you know more of them, but I know some of the folks who are sort of, like, the longevity folks. Yeah. And I find a lot of them are very unhappy people.

Dr. Mark Hyman
Yeah. Joy. Right? Where is the joy?

Simon Sinek
These guys, mostly men, who are obsessed with longevity, and they're taking all of the measurements, and they're taking all the vitamins and supplements, and they're doing all the exercises, and they're doing all the things, and everything's scheduled and highlighted. And I find them not very happy people.

Dr. Mark Hyman
No. No. You know? Just find the joy.

Simon Sinek
Find where and, like, where like, maybe work out a little less. Don't worry about if you miss the supplement, and maybe just hang with friends, I bet. I I mean, the data will prove it out. Like, we have to wait a bunch of years because they are longevity obsessives. The only way we'll know if it works or not is when they die.

Yeah. And if and and if they will be happy and healthy in old age. Yeah. Because nobody wants to live a long time and be decrepit. No.

You know? And so we

Dr. Mark Hyman
have That's why, like, I We'll

Simon Sinek
have to wait it out.

Dr. Mark Hyman
Most of my friends are in their thirties and forties now because, like, you know, a lot of my older friends have just sort of checked out. You know?

Simon Sinek
But but but I but we have to but we have to redo this podcast in forty years and see

Dr. Mark Hyman
if all the longevity

Simon Sinek
all the longevity obsessive, which they're still around or if they're dead. I'm gonna put I'm gonna put I'm gonna I'm gonna do a Vegas betting pool here, which is I would bet that the people who are healthy ish, like, they don't they're not unhealthy, but they're not obsessively healthy. Yeah. Right? Like, yes, they get enough sleep.

Yes, they eat mostly well. You know, like, good They

Dr. Mark Hyman
do the basics.

Simon Sinek
They do the basics. You know, sometimes a little better, sometimes a little worse. Like, on vacation, they're terrible. You know? Like, they're not obsessive, but they're they're they're not unhealthy Yeah.

Is the way I would define them. But they're spend a ton of time with friends, and they have a fantastic sense of humor Mhmm. And they love to laugh. I will bet money that those people will live longer than all of the folks who are measuring and

Dr. Mark Hyman
I agree.

Simon Sinek
And powdering and

Dr. Mark Hyman
I mean, it's it's it's evolutionary. I mean, I don't know if you know E. A. Wilson wrote a book called The Social Conquest of the Earth about from ants to humans how we have to work together to survive.

Simon Sinek
Yeah.

Dr. Mark Hyman
And in fact altruism is a built in phenomena and that it activates the same neural circuits as heroin or cocaine or sugar in terms of the Wow. Nucleus accumbens and the pleasure. And I I remember this. It sounds kind of weird to say, but when I was in Haiti and I was sleeping four hours a night and I was working, you know, helping people all day, barely eating anything, you know, probably dehydrated in the hot sun, I felt like this sense of happiness and joy like I never felt. And it was weird because I was in the middle of this disaster with people, you know, with limbs amputated and dead people everywhere.

It was it was the stench was amazing. But something was happening in me where I was in service of others.

Simon Sinek
Yeah. I

Dr. Mark Hyman
wasn't thinking about myself. And it's sort of why do what I do? I mean, I I'm always in service of others, and and I always am happiest when I'm serving others.

Simon Sinek
Yeah. You

Dr. Mark Hyman
know, like before this podcast, I came because I was helping somebody and I was late because this person said my kid, you know, needs help and he's sick and he's got this issue. Could you also help him? And I'm like, okay. Yeah. Yeah.

I get it. And, you know, because I can. I do.

Simon Sinek
The there's a book called Survival of the Friendliest.

Dr. Mark Hyman
That's good.

Simon Sinek
And it makes it makes an argument that we've completely misunderstood Darwin. Mhmm. That the idea of survival of the fittest, we have always attributed to brute strength. Yeah. And so if you can overpower someone, you're more likely to survive.

And they make an argument for social animals and mammals that that's actually completely incorrect. Mhmm. That what he meant by fittest was most fit to create community and take care of each other. And survival of the fittest is actually nothing to do with brute strength.

Dr. Mark Hyman
Fascinating.

Simon Sinek
But it's actually to do with the ones who are better at taking care of each other.

Dr. Mark Hyman
So as you started thinking about this book, Simon, and I can't wait to read it even though you haven't written it yet.

Simon Sinek
That's a good sign. I should put it up on Amazon. Drive those presales before

Dr. Mark Hyman
I'm gonna order it. I'm gonna pre order it.

Simon Sinek
Cover to come, title to come, yet untitled book. Yeah.

Dr. Mark Hyman
And, you know, as I think about it, I don't I don't I can't think of a lot of books on friendship.

Simon Sinek
Actually. Well, this is this is the reason that my friend Will and I decided my friend Will Guder and I decided to write this, because it seems to make sense that you should write a book about friendship with a friend. Yeah. Writing a book about friendship by yourself doesn't make sense. So, Will and I decided to write it together.

And, you know, the we came to the realization that there's an entire industry to help us be better leaders. Mhmm. An entire industry to help us be better parents. An entire industry to help us, you know, thrive in our relationships. How to eat better.

How to exercise better. How to live longer. And yet precious

Dr. Mark Hyman
little I've written all those books.

Simon Sinek
And yet you've written all those books, and yet precious little yet precious little on on how to be a friend. That's right. And when you look at all the challenges, as we said, in the world of depression and anxiety and all of the all these epidemics that, you know, doctors and and and and well intended folks are talking about. No one is talking about friendship as the antidote. Yeah.

And I think that friendship is the ultimate biohack. I think if you can master friendship, a lot of those other things correct themselves.

Dr. Mark Hyman
So let's talk about that because that's right.

Simon Sinek
Like friendship like friendship in the microbiome. Yeah. You know, get the microbiome right, a lot of stuff just falls into place. Get friendship right, a lot of stuff just falls into place.

Dr. Mark Hyman
It's true. It's true. So so as you're thinking about this book The

Simon Sinek
reason I said that is because that's that's your thing.

Dr. Mark Hyman
The microbiome? You like a microbiome. I do. Well, it's a if your bugs aren't friendly

Simon Sinek
You love a gut health.

Dr. Mark Hyman
If your bugs aren't friendly, you're not happy. Can I just

Simon Sinek
go I have to interrupt here? Please. Can you talk to me about probiotic sodas if they're a pile of shit or not?

Dr. Mark Hyman
Well, if there's sugar in them and there's artificial sweeteners in them, they definitely aren't good for your gut. Okay.

Simon Sinek
So just that they put okay.

Dr. Mark Hyman
Simply That's why I said if it has a health claim on the label, I avoid it.

Simon Sinek
Got it. What about kombucha?

Dr. Mark Hyman
Again, it's like a lot of sugar. It's a lot of sugar.

Simon Sinek
I was surprised. One of my favorite kombucha brands, I looked at it the other day. Lot of sugar. 22 grams of sugar in the bottle. I was like, that's ridiculous.

Dr. Mark Hyman
That's four and a half teaspoons of sugar or five and a half teaspoons of sugar. So

Simon Sinek
You would never put five and a half teaspoons of sugar in your coffee. And why are you putting five and a half teaspoons of sugar in your your quote, unquote, healthy drink?

Dr. Mark Hyman
Yep. My rest of my case. If it has a health claim, don't eat it.

Simon Sinek
If it has a health claim, don't eat it.

Dr. Mark Hyman
High fiber, low fat, low low sugar. I didn't know. It's just if it if it you know, an egg doesn't have a label on it. You know? Broccoli and apple doesn't have a label or a barcode or an ingredient list.

Stick with that. So so speaking of friends, let's go back to friends. I think this is really important. We're talking about the importance of friendship.

Simon Sinek
Yeah.

Dr. Mark Hyman
We're talking about how critical it is for your health. We're talking about how it's critical it is for your overall mental health and well-being. But a lot of people listening are isolated and disconnected, you know, and don't know Clearly, they listen to

Simon Sinek
a podcast.

Dr. Mark Hyman
Maybe. I I listen to podcasts.

Simon Sinek
With your friends? Nobody listens to podcasts with

Dr. Mark Hyman
My wife and I do. We listen

Simon Sinek
to podcasts. To podcasts together quite a bit, actually. Podcast listenership should be going down if we want the world to be healthy.

Dr. Mark Hyman
But it you know, and, you know, there's there's a great, book I read once called Refrigerator Rights, which is how many people in your life do you have the right to go in their house and open their fridge and eat whatever you want. Love that. And that's a measure of the quality of your friendships and the health of your of your

Simon Sinek
social media. I love that. I have one friend that makes fun of me. Their family makes fun of me that I just go into their pantry. That's right.

That's good. You want that.

Dr. Mark Hyman
Like, I I'm staying at a friend's house and I went in their fridge this morning and I took out some food because I had to call and I was busy today. And I Yeah.

Simon Sinek
You didn't ask permission.

Dr. Mark Hyman
No. I just took out the Will

Simon Sinek
you politely go, can I can I

Dr. Mark Hyman
can I I'm

Simon Sinek
gonna tell them after, but I there

Dr. Mark Hyman
were these Maui Nui venison sticks, and I knew I had a long day, and I didn't have time to eat? And I you know, it was so I was like yeah. So so so that I had refrigerator rights in that house.

Simon Sinek
That's very good. I I I the New York version of that is you is you go into a friend's house that you have refrigerator rights, apartment, there's no houses. You open up their fridge and you see there's nothing in there except, half a carton of milk and a and a and a box of Chinese takeout.

Dr. Mark Hyman
Yeah.

Simon Sinek
And you say to your friend, can I eat this Chinese? You scream out, and they scream back

Dr. Mark Hyman
It's been there for two weeks.

Simon Sinek
I wouldn't. It's been there for two weeks. You go, okay. And you just close the fridge, and you leave the Chinese food in there. That's refrigerates underneath it.

Dr. Mark Hyman
So if it's so important, people listening, I I I imagine are thinking, oh, this is great. I feel this. I know this is how important. And I and I feel the the disconnection. Yeah.

But I don't know how to make friends. I don't know how to where to start. I don't know how to take the friends I have and make them better or find new friends. I don't know how to make friendship the medicine that I need in my life. Yep.

Where where does a drugstore for friendship? You know? How how are you thinking about this? And and as you start to think about this book, how are you thinking about

Simon Sinek
Yeah.

Dr. Mark Hyman
Supporting, coaching, imagining how to build that network of

Simon Sinek
So so the good news is there's new organizations that are starting that are encouraging people to come have a dinner, you know, fight with five strangers and stuff like that. So there's, like, there's these new businesses that are trying to replace the bowling leagues and stuff like that. Because you used to join sign up for the bowling league and you'd you'd be put on a team.

Dr. Mark Hyman
Yeah.

Simon Sinek
And that's your team. You know, maybe one of them was your friend, maybe not. But you that that was your team. We're going to church. So I think starting with with with common interests.

Sign up for a ceramics class and go by yourself. Or if you're too nervous to go by yourself, go with a friend. But talk to the person you're sitting next to. First time? You know?

Because the great thing about doing a thing with common interests is the icebreaker is really, really easy.

Dr. Mark Hyman
Mhmm.

Simon Sinek
You just have to say, is is this your first time here? Have you done this before? And it pretty much starts the conversation. And so and and if you don't, you don't have to form a deep meaningful relationship out of it. But I think starting to do hobby things, and I think having hobbies, and we've seen a decline in hobbies even.

Yeah. You know? And doing hobbies with people. I that's why I said

Dr. Mark Hyman
club.

Simon Sinek
Yeah. That's why I said, go play chess, you know, in a in a park, you know? That's why I said, I think things like Comic Con and things like that are spectacular. Because when you find a group of people who, you know, when people laugh at your hobby and you find a group of people who we've all been laughed at but now we're the we're the norm here, it's in it's incredibly easy to make friends. And, like, the thing that's so I've I've been to Comic Con many, many times.

And, and, you know, it's it's Nerdvana.

Dr. Mark Hyman
What is Comic Con?

Simon Sinek
You don't know what Comic Con is?

Dr. Mark Hyman
No. Vaguely. It vaguely.

Simon Sinek
It's, well, it's changed over the years. But basically, it's a it's a comic book convention. That's

Dr. Mark Hyman
what I thought it was.

Simon Sinek
That's the that's the history. But but these days, comic books are only a part of it. It's also science fiction and hero movies, you know, Marvel stories and Star Wars and, you know, DC and all of that. And it's it's it's all that nerdy kind of pop culture y stuff.

Dr. Mark Hyman
Mhmm.

Simon Sinek
And there's a lot of cosplay that happens. So people will dress up as their favorite cartoon character or superhero or, you know, some obscure character, and some of them are super creative and some Yeah. Yeah. And it's and, you know, some people are there for the the content of the convention, and some people are there just to walk around in costume and have fun. And what's so wonderful about it is it's an incredibly polite group of people.

Mhmm. So if you are in a great costume where you see one see someone who's in a see someone who's in a great costume and you wanna have a picture with them or they want a picture with you, everybody asks. Everybody goes, can I have a picture with you, please? Or, hey, may I have a picture with you, please? And so there's a lot of interaction.

You can go up to somebody and say, I love your costume, and they will be friendly back. There's not a lot of cynicism. And the it's, you know, I'm I met one of my ex girlfriends there. I literally went up to her and said, you look amazing. Can I have a picture with you?

And she goes, absolutely. We took a picture together because I just loved her costume. Mhmm. I don't remember how the conversation started, but we ended up talking a little bit for just a few minutes. I don't know how we got to it, but we ended up trading phone numbers.

Mhmm. And then we ended up having sort of a really great relationship. And the best part about that is I still have the photograph, not from our first date, I had the photograph from the moment we met.

Dr. Mark Hyman
That's amazing.

Simon Sinek
Which doesn't happen in relationships. Right. You don't say, nice to meet you. Let's take a selfie just in case. Right.

Right. You know, but I have the photograph of the time that we the minute we met.

Dr. Mark Hyman
Yeah.

Simon Sinek
And, and it's just again, it's I think when you go to places where people like the things you like, it's gonna increase the odds. And it's not that you increase the odds that you'll find in deep meaningful relationships, but it makes it easier to break the ice.

Dr. Mark Hyman
To just get started.

Simon Sinek
To get started. So that's, I think, where people struggle. They struggle on how to start. One of the

Dr. Mark Hyman
things I'm curious about. I'd love your opinion on this is, you know, my experience is two things really help foster deep friendships. One is curiosity. Yep. So being deeply curious about who that person is and asking questions about what what are they afraid of, what makes them laugh, what makes them most excited in life, what brings them joy, you know, what are they struggling with, what's going on.

Just getting curious about somebody and then letting them talk. Most people don't get that chance to have someone really be present and listen. And the second is to be vulnerable yourself. So to to let down your guard Mhmm.

Simon Sinek
And

Dr. Mark Hyman
to share what's in your heart because it all of a sudden gives permission for the other person Mhmm. To start to do that. Mhmm. And then once you get past that kind of first layer of soil, you get down into the mother lode

Simon Sinek
Yeah.

Dr. Mark Hyman
Of of authentic in a relationship.

Simon Sinek
It's a seesaw. Right? Which is you kinda expect someone to be vulnerable if you're not willing to be vulnerable back because it creates it creates imbalance. Yeah. And I actually had this I actually met some new friends just very recently.

They're friends of friends. I went up to Seattle for work, and one of my friends who's from Seattle said, oh, you need to meet my friends. They live up there. You guys will get along. So we all showed up as strangers.

The three of us showed up as strangers. I mean they know each other, they're married, but I went out with them just because our mutual friends said you guys should meet and so we all took time to meet and I can't remember who started, but there was a lot of vulnerability happening. Mhmm. And you, you know, you could feel that one side had opened up more than the other. It was lopsided.

Mhmm. Right? And I think it was me who who opened up a lot. And then they said, here, let us balance this out. Yeah.

And they were keenly aware of the balance of vulnerability. Yeah. They started opening up an offering to make me feel safer. Yeah. Right?

Because it it was lopsided, which is Yeah. Yeah. It it's it's you feel safe for a while until you start to feel insecure because it's so lopsided.

Dr. Mark Hyman
Yeah.

Simon Sinek
And they were so aware of that seesaw that they literally said, let let me balance this out for

Dr. Mark Hyman
you. Yeah.

Simon Sinek
Or do you want us to go first so that you're comfortable to speak? You know? And we were it was amazing. We talked about it. We actually that became one of the topics of conversation Yeah.

Is how we were managing vulnerability as we were getting to know each other for the first time that we were we were keeping the balance. We were both taking turns to manage the balance. And I thought it was incredibly interesting and sophisticated. And by the way, amazing people. Yeah.

Like, now they're like, I'm like mad about them. Yeah. You know? Yeah. Like genuine friends.

Dr. Mark Hyman
Yeah. And I I think I think it's hard for people to do that though. And how do you how do you, invite people to

Simon Sinek
You can't do it with everyone. I think that's where people get it wrong. It's not a prescription. Right? You can't say, here are the five things you need to do.

Because if somebody's not willing to match you or go with you, it will feel unbalanced or insecure. And or you might open up so much and the other person doesn't want to, and then you'll make yourself feel uncomfortable, which you make them feel uncomfortable too. Yeah. And so this is why I say it's a dance, which is, you know, you you give a little bit, and do you get a little bit back? And if you don't get anything back I'll show

Dr. Mark Hyman
you mine if you show me yours.

Simon Sinek
Yeah. Exactly. And if you give a little bit and you get nothing back, you can take another risk and get a little bit more. But at some point, you're gonna have to stop. And it's not that they're bad people or that they won't make friends.

It's some people are a little slower at opening up. Yeah. And some people are a little quicker. And we have to allow these things to go at their own pace. But I think you have to manage the balance, or you can say it out loud.

Hey, usually I I come out and sort of share everything, but, you know, I I'm I I'm gonna be a little more measured today because I I don't wanna, you know, I feel a little insecure today, if I'm honest. You know, I don't really know you, you know, and I think that's okay. Yeah. But I think it's I think that's where people get it wrong, which is there's no prescription and everybody's different, And you kind of have to read the room. Yeah.

You know? I think that's where people make the mistakes. I've definitely made that mistake. I've projected safety where it didn't exist. Yeah.

So I started opening up because I wanted them to make me feel safe.

Dr. Mark Hyman
Yeah. And then and then did you feel like you you you, suffered because of that, or was it because or was it just kind of like No.

Simon Sinek
I created uncomfortable situations by accident either for myself or for them.

Dr. Mark Hyman
Yeah. I overshared. I overshared. Yeah. That's it.

It's an interesting question. Like, is is is oversharing Depends on the person. A problem?

Simon Sinek
Depends on the person who's listening. Yeah. For some people, if you overshare and they are able and have the skill set to hold that space without judgment, then there's no problem at all. But if somebody is ill equipped to hold space for an oversharer, it's gonna be uncomfortable.

Dr. Mark Hyman
Well, they're even just asking, hey. I'd like to share this

Simon Sinek
Yeah. I think asking permission. I think asking permission. Yeah. Yeah.

I think that's great. Yeah. It's like Maybe

Dr. Mark Hyman
you have to do, but it kinda resets their barometer.

Simon Sinek
Because that's the technique for having difficult conversations. Right? You're like, I need to have a difficult conversation with you. Can I have that with you now? And people be like, can we do it later?

Dr. Mark Hyman
You know?

Simon Sinek
Or Like, I think asking permission is like, I need to give you some difficult feedback. Can I give that to you? Yeah. Go ahead. You know, like my friend

Dr. Mark Hyman
Like your friend. Right?

Simon Sinek
My friend said, I gotta tell you something. You know, this may risk the whole friendship. And you're like, okay. You know, like that little preamble that lets you sort of take the breath. And I think that's very wise counsel, which is to say, can I share something personal with

Dr. Mark Hyman
me Yeah?

Simon Sinek
With you? And they may say, honestly, I don't think I'm comfortable. But if they say yes, then I think they're coconspirators.

Dr. Mark Hyman
So what's what's your what's your goal with your book? What's the the sort of aim you're you're targeting?

Simon Sinek
It's it's everything we said before, which is there's so much advice on how to succeed as a leader, as a parent, as a, you know, in a in a romantic relationship, and I want people to succeed in friendship. And you're you know, I'm somebody who has had very few long term relationships in my life, and the world criticizes me for that. I'm seen as unhealthy or I've been judged as having commitment issues.

Dr. Mark Hyman
Love relationships or just friendships?

Simon Sinek
Love relationships.

Dr. Mark Hyman
Yeah.

Simon Sinek
You know? I've never been married. I don't have a 10 romantic relationship. I haven't had it. You know?

And even some of the women I've dated, they're like, what's wrong with you?

Dr. Mark Hyman
You mean either. I mean, the worst four, five, three times.

Simon Sinek
What's wrong with you is what I hear a lot.

Dr. Mark Hyman
Right.

Simon Sinek
And I have a I have a friend who was in a sixteen year relationship, an unhealthy relationship Yeah. For sixteen years. She freely admits that she should have stayed in that relationship for one year.

Dr. Mark Hyman
Oh, yeah.

Simon Sinek
And yet society looks at her and says she got it right and I got it wrong. Mhmm. Which is twisted. And if you look at the quality of my friendships, like I have a lot of really, really good friends, and I am fulfilled in almost every aspect of my life, but just not necessarily all from one person. And look, I like relationships and I love being in a relationship and I love being a partner to someone.

And, you know, people say, well, why why haven't you why haven't you been married? I'm like, is it obvious I haven't met the right person yet? That's such a stupid question. But, but I I I found comfort in recognizing that by fostering friendship, I don't have to feel guilty or bad or explain myself why I haven't had a a marriage or a ten year romantic relationship.

Dr. Mark Hyman
And And friendships outlast relationships.

Simon Sinek
And friendships outlast and friendships are there to help you through relationships. And if you don't have good friendships, you'll struggle in your relationships relationships because you have to have somebody to ask advice or vent to. You can't always go to one person. It won't work. And so I think we don't give enough credit to friendship, clearly, because nothing's written about it, or so little is written about it.

We don't give enough credit to friendship, and we don't give credit to people who are good at friendship. We give credit to people who stay in relationships, even those relationships even if those relationships are unhealthy. And I think we just need to reevaluate how we're managing relationship in general in our lives, and I want I wanna be a part of the friendship movement quite often.

Dr. Mark Hyman
I love that. I mean, that's it's it's really that one of the chapters of our book around how to get healthy is friends. Yeah. The five f's.

Simon Sinek
Yeah. Exactly. Amen. And and on that note, my friend, thank you so much.

Dr. Mark Hyman
So, yeah, Simon, thanks for talking about friendship and your vision and your incredible, like, kaleidoscopic mind focusing on this topic because it's, I think, one of the most existential topics of our time, the disconnection, isolation, loneliness, and that investing in friendships, understanding what they are, how to cultivate them, how to create them, how to foster them and nurture them, how to be a good friend. It's the best medicine. If you love this podcast, please share it with someone else you think would also enjoy it. You can find me on all social media channels at doctor Mark Hyman. Please reach out.

I'd love to hear your comments and questions. Don't forget to rate, review, and subscribe to the doctor Hyman Show wherever you get your podcasts. And don't forget to check out my YouTube channel at doctor Mark Hyman for video versions of this podcast and more. Thank you so much again for tuning in. We'll see you next time on the Doctor.

Hyman Show. This podcast is separate from my clinical practice at the Ultra Wellness Center, my work at Cleveland Clinic, and Function Health where I am chief medical officer. This podcast represents my opinions and my guests' opinions. Neither myself nor the podcast endorses the views or statements of my guests. This podcast is for educational purposes professional.

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